The Essential Atlas

Benson800 a écrit:Je viens de voir que la seule version mise sur Amazon est publiée par Titan Book, avec un prix en £, ce qui forcemment augmente le prix en euros. A part ceci, quelqu'un sait si il y a une différence entre les bouquins de Titan Books et ceux de Del Rey (niveau qualité, format, etc...) ?

jasonfry posted:
We decided, after some back and forth, to extend "geographical canonicity" (now there's a term!) to RPG articles by authors who also had licensed Star Wars works. (For instance: Slavicsek articles in Dragon.)

Jason Fry a écrit:That will let us gather them in one place for eventual errata/corrections. Your help would be much appreciated!

AdmiralNick22 a écrit:For starters, I want to say a hearty "WELL DONE!" to both Dan Wallace and Jason Fry.



Gosh, where to start? This book has it all. I went home from work
at lunch to see if UPS dropped it off, and was very pleased to see that
they had! I spent only about 30 minutes scanning through it, but some
stuff that stood out in my mind included the following:



1. Mon Calamari Space. Great detail, plus it is nice to see the extent of Mon Calamari expansion pre-Republic discovery.

2. The secret shipyards at Hast are in the Outer Rim, just outside Mon Cal space.

3. New Alderaan is also on the border of MC space.

4. Fleet movements during the New Galactic Civil War. EVERY named fleet, plus planetary ones and idependent ones, it placed.

5. The New Republic's Five Fleets. The Atlas confirms where each one was stationed.

6. Dornea! I have always wanted to know where it was. In the Outer Rim, not very far south of where Mon Cal is.

7. Rodia is now home to a large Vong refugee population.

8. Ithorians have several new colonies, but the majority live on the surviving herd ships.

9. Yevethans survived! Fewer than 10,000 remain.

10. GA Remnant in 137 ABY has several pockets of the galaxy where
they have covert support, including Mon Cal, Sluis Van, Ryloth, and
others.

11. When the Sith-Imperial War started, Hapes and Bothan Space declared neutrality.

12. Yuuzhan Vong War map clearly details their movement through the galaxy, as well as major assaults.

13. The secret hyperlane from Mon Calamari to the Core is shown on the Vong War map.



All in all, this book rocked. I can't wait to get off work and delve in some more!



--Adm. Nick

Jason Fry a écrit:
<blockquote>Senator_Cilghal posted:good catch on Cathar

p32 Cathar near Dathomir in Outer Rim [KOTOR placement]
but
p21 near Ploo in Expansion Region [WOTC placement]

Jason revised the location due to KOTOR, but apparently the original
WOTC placement was not removed....I think that is what happened
</blockquote>

Yes, that's right -- the Expansion Region placement should have been removed.

Senator_Cilghal a écrit:Jason, could you indicate which of the following are correct in cases of seeming double placements:

1)the relationship between the apparently new planets Archais and
Taskeed vs the cities of those names (on Alsakan and Yefowr
respectively)? Which events and battles tie in to which?

2)
Also, the maps and appendix seem to be missing Amara, homeworld of the
Amarans (ie, Amara Fox-type vulpinoids!); this should be near Ambria
IIRC

3) was Outland Station rebuilt after Bounty Hunter since y'all say Imps and Rebels used it?

4) why Farrfin got moved

5) which location for Merakai is correct (p12 location or Shelsha Sector as per p16)

6) whether Nierport and Eeropha are in the same star system--I don't
know of anything in JQ to either confirm or contradict that

7) why y'all place Skye so far from Tirahnn

whether Tovarskl is in the same system as Kalee (p70) or a separate system as per p202

9) whether Quanta Sector/Tinnel IV is in Core (p12) or Colonies (p190)

other questions:

10) which of the worlds associated with Yakh-Tosh, if any, are supposed to be Lourdes's planet from Starcrash

11) also, if Demophon was on one of the "Big Routes", wouldn't its
supernova have ruined that route from Rebellion times onward?

12) are the following alien species or just human populations:
Selitani, Ereesi, Mikans (=Jellyfish statue-people???), Killam, Nimm
people (depopulated and/or priests), Barisoni, Ornki of Orn Kios,
Delphon "primitive culture", Seratians of Serat

Jason Fry a écrit:Gimme
some time, please, Senator. Enormous amount of stuff to take in -- Dan
and I are compiling the potential errata and questions, though. So
please keep 'em coming.

Senator_Cilghal a écrit:OK,
I noticed the Clone Wars section seems to follow the chronology est.
pre-cartoon, which surprised me, I thought it'd stay vague. So this is
going to be the policy? I like the decision, as fitting all that stuff
into a few weeks would have been a mess. I take it this means Anakin's
padawan braid should be ignored in all these later adventures, although
in some places it will be hard to do so, chiefly the whole Padawan Pack
thing and being Mundi's apprentice when OB1 is missing

Jason:
Are you going to keep updating your system database with new locations
form books, comics, and shows published post-Atlas?

Delvaruds
is the only warlord whose Deep Core HQ is not specified in Atlas. I
noticed the map of the Dark Empire era places Delvardus in about the
same part of the Deep Core the Deep Core map in Part I places the
planet Odik. Could this be the capital of Delvardus?

I've been thinking of what maps would be neat online expansions:

1) Black Fleet Crisis, inc a broad galaxy map of Akanah's travels and
the Teljkon Vagabond's travels, and a detailed map of the Koornacht
area, the Purge, and battles bw Yevetha and NR

2) Kyle Katarn's adventures

3) Boba Fett's adventures

4) map companions to Jedi Apprentice, Jedi Quest, and Last of the Jedi

5) map companion to JAT and Darksaber

6) Antemeridian/Meridian detail map, with spread of plague, movements of characters

7) adventures of R2 and 3PO between Episodes III and IV

Ssi-ruuk/Shiritoku detail map

9) Corellian sector detail map

10) Shelswa Sector detail, Allegiance companion

11) HoT companion map and Bothan Space detail

12) Sluis Sector detail map

13) map of Rebel bases

14) Gree Enclave detail map

15) Gevarno Loop detail

16) travels of Argo and Vanis and the search for them

Nathan Butler a écrit:There
isn't a "new" dating system in the Atlas. The Atlas uses the same
BBY/ABY dates that have been around since they used to be BSW4/ASW4 in
some early publications. They follow LFL's longstanding dates and
approach to those dates, even as they relate to the digital GWNN/HNN
dates.

The only things new are clarifications:

1. The
ANH date, having been originally created as a 10-month calendar date,
then later assumed to be a 12-month calendar date, is again reiterated
as being a 12-month calendar date.

2. The ESB date, having
been created as a 10-month calendar date, has now been provided (with
approval) as the 12-month calendar date (just as Leland Chee recently
noted that those old 10-month exact dates would be treated as a
12-month calendar in the future overall).

3. ROTJ now has a
date, which finally answers the old issue of whether it is actually 4
ABY or 1 year after ESB, which weren't the same, thanks to Galaxywide
News Nets.

4. The Road to Coruscant, Hunt for Zsinj, and
Thrawn Campaign all have daily dated maps, which also means that the
twins now have a date of birth, and some of the novels have exact start
dates.

5. The NJO dates in relation to hardcover placement and
how movements span between its years have been laid out, but only in
broad strokes.

6. The TPM date that was originally a Holocron-only date has finally been revealed.

7. The conflict between Karen Traviss' "Order 66" dates for ROTS and
the Holonet News (et al) dates for ROTS has been resolved in favor of
the latter at Chee's direction.

8. I now get to look like an
idiot because a typo in an email I wrote to Jason ended up in the Atlas
as a typo (so to speak) in the date for ROTS, which should be one year
later than the date given on the map (16, not 15).

Those who
are making the argument that this is a "new" dating system have, for
years apparently, been mistakenly regarding years relative to ANH as
"Month 1 - Month 12," not "Month 3 - Month 2," which is something that
LFL had rarely addressed outwardly, but something that has been the
case since GWNN printed a date for ANH, and something that the SWT-G
(et al) has tried to educate people about for years, apparently with
little success.

Jason Fry a écrit:<blockquote>Senator_Cilghal posted:OK,
I noticed the Clone Wars section seems to follow the chronology est.
pre-cartoon, which surprised me, I thought it'd stay vague. So this is
going to be the policy? I like the decision, as fitting all that stuff
into a few weeks would have been a mess. I take it this means Anakin's
padawan braid should be ignored in all these later adventures, although
in some places it will be hard to do so, chiefly the whole Padawan Pack
thing and being Mundi's apprentice when OB1 is missing</blockquote>

I would assume nothing about CW dating. Once things are put in order,
whenever that is, I suspect there will have to be a fair amount of
ignoring braids etc.

<blockquote>Senator_Cilghal posted:Jason:
Are you going to keep updating your system database with new locations
form books, comics, and shows published post-Atlas?</blockquote>

Yes -- and in fact already have about 30 new ones from recent and upcoming stuff.

<blockquote>Senator_Cilghal posted:Delvaruds
is the only warlord whose Deep Core HQ is not specified in Atlas. I
noticed the map of the Dark Empire era places Delvardus in about the
same part of the Deep Core the Deep Core map in Part I places the
planet Odik. Could this be the capital of Delvardus?</blockquote>

I don't think we dealt with capitals for the warlords. (Did they even have them?) But that's certainly possible.

<blockquote>Senator_Cilghal posted:I've been thinking of what maps would be neat online expansions:

1) Black Fleet Crisis, inc a broad galaxy map of Akanah's travels and
the Teljkon Vagabond's travels, and a detailed map of the Koornacht
area, the Purge, and battles bw Yevetha and NR

2) Kyle Katarn's adventures

3) Boba Fett's adventures

4) map companions to Jedi Apprentice, Jedi Quest, and Last of the Jedi

5) map companion to JAT and Darksaber

6) Antemeridian/Meridian detail map, with spread of plague, movements of characters

7) adventures of R2 and 3PO between Episodes III and IV

Ssi-ruuk/Shiritoku detail map

9) Corellian sector detail map

10) Shelswa Sector detail, Allegiance companion

11) HoT companion map and Bothan Space detail

12) Sluis Sector detail map

13) map of Rebel bases

14) Gree Enclave detail map

15) Gevarno Loop detail

16) travels of Argo and Vanis and the search for them</blockquote>

Cool ideas -- thank you for them. I think I have a Gevarno Loop map
that I did freehand, in fact. And there's a Gree map in the old
Adventure Journal.

We're unlikely to go near stuff that
might become a continuity snarl with new material, which argues against
R2/3PO, Boba Fett and other stuff that might come into play for CW or
the live series. I definitely want to do some more Closer Looks if LFL
and readers are interested, and doing a Core sector and an area that's
on the frontier and half Wild Space would be really fun.

Returning to the issue to address it once again:

ROTJ was 4 ABY. Not 4.1, not 4.5, but 4.0. That is why, for example, X-wing: Rogue Squadron, set 2.5 years after ROTJ (as originally described for the first few years of the Bantam days when dates were post-ROTJ or pre-ANH, not all relating to ANH in all official listings except in the in-comic timeline) can also be 6.5 ABY, as it is referred to today.

If ROTJ is not set in the same month of the year as ANH, then we have incorrect LFL-provided dates for stories (particularly the X-wing novels) from around 1991 through 1996 or so, until they switched promoting items as post-ROTJ and started adding the extra four years to start referring to them in post-ANH terms.

If ROTJ is four years after the Battle of Yavin (35:3), it cannot be one year after the Battle of Hoth (38:6), unless Month 3 and Month 6 (what we might call March and June) are the same month of the year somehow.

Thus, what the statement from me that was quoted says, as it has every other time I've said the same and gotten a similar response back, is this:

"There was a question of whether ROTJ was in 39:3, which would be 4.0 ABY and would keep the
dating conventions of post-ROTJ and post-ANH consistent from 1991 onward (rather than only 1997 or so onward), or if ROTJ was in 39:6 (1.0 years after ESB), which is the way it was often referred to in passing by LFL and fans. Given the dates for ANH and ESB, we know that ANH and ESB weren't set in the same month of the year (3 and 6), and ESB is actually more like 3.25 ABY, rather than 3 ABY. That means that
a 1-year-after-ESB date for ROTJ is actually 4.25 ABY, not 4 ABY. We finally handled this old contradiction by determining that we'd keep the dates consistent in relation to ROTJ and ANH, so ROTJ was determined to be in 39:3 (4 ABY), rather than 39:6 (4.25 ABY), thereby making it no longer accurate to say that 'ROTJ is 1 year after ESB,' instead of the now-confirmed '0.75 years after ESB.'"

I said "ROTJ now has a date, which finally answers the old issue of whether it is actually 4 ABY or 1 year after ESB, which weren't the same." I did not say "in the year 4 ABY" or "in 4 ABY." I said "4 ABY." That's not a year, that's a duration of time after ANH.

(Hmm, now I really can't tell after re-reading if it came off snippy. Gah.)

<blockquote class="BoardBlockquoteTag">For
the record, I have to agree with those that thing it's silly for the
ABY notation to be keyed to a specific day. Not even the French
revolutionaries did that--they just renamed the months. Why would the
Rebellion mess things up on a galactic scale just because they could?
Are they that self-involved? Don't answer that, Mothma probably is.

But as little sense as it makes IU, it makes less sense OOU. Events just happen to happen on key anniversaries?

Wasn't the whole point of switching to 12 months to make things easier?
How does this help? I'd rather have the 10 months than the recentered
calendar.</blockquote>

Again, it's NOT a recentered calendar. It's TWO SEPARATE CALENDARS. Nothing was "recentered." Nothing is "new" about these two calendars and how they work.

I would again point to the Gregorian, Hebrew, Islamic, Persian, Ethiopian, and other real-world calendars that all exist simultaneously, tracking time in their own designed fashion, without sharing the same beginning or ending dates of the year. The argument that it "makes less sense OOU" basically ignores what actually happens in that "OOU" reality.

The switching of 10 to 12 months a few years back did absolutely nothing to whether a date BBY or ABY was from Month 3 through Month 2 or not. All it did was change that duration from being a 10 month year to a 12 month year. It was still a new year *relative to ANH* beginning in Month 3 and ending once Month 2 ended on the OTHER calendar. That hasn't changed. That's been the same since the first day ANH was pinned down to 35:3 back in the August 1994 "Official Star Was Adventure Journal."

The New Republic created a new calendar to exist ALONGSIDE the old Great ReSynchronizaton calendar, just as the people (apparently) of the era of the upcoming "The Old Republic" game created the BTC/ATC calendar of their era to exist ALONGSIDE the pre-ReSynch digital calendar, and just as those fighting in the Clone Wars created the BBG/ABG calendar to exist ALONGSIDE the Great ReSynch digital calendar in their era.

I really have no idea what is so hard about this concept for people to grasp, hence the frustration. Perhaps
it's because I've known about this for years, and teaching history has made it make sense from pretty much day one (though I did wish they had put ANH in Month 1 for clarity's sake back then, or at least had kept
ESB closer to ANH's month when I saw that for the first time).

Bear in mind, though, the one thing that people seem to be missing here: Just because a fan might not have known or realized that something was true until now, that doesn't mean that the fact is "new." The understanding might be new, and the information might be new to that person, but it does not, by any means, make that long-standing fact some kind of "new" decision.

<blockquote class="BoardBlockquoteTag">Nate-
here's a version of my analysis of AOTC that I've been working off of
for my timeline since I started it. Not to bug you but perhaps you can
help show me where things are supposed to be shortened to make the BOG
happen on 5:22 instead of 5:23. Since figuring out how Jango could fit
into the events of AOTC, Jedi Starfighter and The Fight to Survive was
the entire inciting question that led to the genesis of my timeline,
I'd like to see where I supposedly erred, because it seems like his JSF
appearance has to be on his way back to Kamino, given the relation of
other JSF events in relation to BOG.</blockquote>

I really don't know how to reply to that without possibly quoting directly from something I don't think I'm allowed to quote from. I like your reasoning. I think theirs work too.

And, boy, am I glad I only had to dig up the starting date for that film, rather than giving dates for every event.

(Frankly, though, all the hubbub with people going apefeces over the ROTJ date, and my typo issue for ROTS, kind of make me wish we'd never bothered to include the film dates on their respective maps at this
point, which was my bright idea at the time. We might as well have left people ignorant of the ESB date if they'd never seen the Adventure Journal, left the date relativity unexplained in our roundabout way, or
left ROTJ's date intentionally ambiguous.)

Dan, Jason:

The Atlas is a bit unclear about the status of Calamari Space during the period between 0 ABY and 4 ABY. Old sources like the WEG RASB (which I know both of you are fans of) established that the Empire was fully aware of the fact that Mon Calamari was a Rebel stronghold, complete with a battle line of the Rebel fleet, orbital defense, etc.

Yet, at one point the Atlas states that the Rebel leaders told the Mon Cals to feign neutrality so that the Empire wasn't aware of their true allegiance.

Is this statement accurate prior to Yavin or did you retcon that portion of the old RASB?

--Adm. Nick

I don't think it's a retcon so much as a "certain point of view" fix. There is much contradictory info about the Mon Cals and the Alliance, and how explicit and how under-the-radar their relationship was. On the one hand you have Ackbar commanding a fleet at the Battle of Turkhana pre-ANH, on the other you have the Classic Star Wars tales in which the Mon Cals don't do anything until after ANH. The Atlas line is meant as a bone to help explain some of these seemingly-contradictory accounts in old sources. I'd imagine that in actual practice the Empire was fully aware of the role of the Mon Cals in supporting the Rebellion, but that the Mon Cals still kept some element of plausible deniability.

jedi-mich a écrit:Donc si j'ai bien compris, c'est un bel ouvrage mais qui comporte quelques erreurs ou incompréhensions.
C'est ça ?

Sinrebirth a écrit:
Have the Atlas, and I have a few key thoughts;

1. KILLIKS and KORRIBAN! Love Jason and Dan. love Also love how the Celestials are portrayed as the less friendly overlords pre-Rakata. Loved the reference to how the UR hyperspace irregularities have been theorised to be Celestial made, which I commented on. Killiks being exploited makes me sad, though.

2. Dorin; now Imperial in 40 ABY, and thus Luke visited the Empire in Outcast. Mildly curious change of how things are viewed.

3. Thrawn Map; Seems my vision of a NR with hundreds of sector fleets is well and truly dead, Nick. But it also means the Empire lost the majority of its fleets between 4 ABY and 9 ABY, as opposed to between 9 ABY and 11 ABY as the old sources suggested more. No difference, really, but curious. The whole Borderlands element made things very interesting, and very intriguing, too. The Imperial Confederation was a neat retcon; and the Alignment consolidating its territories was a nice way to expand Zsinj’s domain – I loved acknowledgement of how Zsinj extended his protection to the Tion Cluster and Corporate Sector. Genius, that one.

4. Post-Zsinj. But I am very pleased that the Atlas acknowledged that Rogriss took back territory from Zsinj, which jibes very well with the whole ‘Zsinj ruled a third of the galaxy’ comments and the fact that the NR ruled 60% of the galaxy as well; the Empire was reduced significantly. Teradoc’s move from the Mid Rim to Core, and Delvardus’ works very well too. Good news – and Harrsk taking territory around Mustafar jibes very well with CotJ.

Question, though, is the Atravis Sector near Belsavis, and the Atravis sector around Generis? Mild confusion.

3. The New GCW; I cautiously dislike the fleet element, if only because the decision to make the 7th and 8th Fleets into Hapan fleets doesn't jive with the concept that the two Hapan fleets (and the Home Fleet) took away 20% of the GA offensive power. With only 9 GA fleets, this doesn’t jive too well in my opinion, and it weakens the GA considerably; with only the First through Sixth and the Ninth, to fight the ‘Corellian Fleets’ and single Commenori, Hutt and Bothan fleet, it works, but against the explicit Three Bothan Fleets – I don’t think it works too well. Seven fleets against seven Confederation, maybe, but not with the 20% line...? I also note that the Battle of Kuat destroyed the majority of the forces there, which in turn wrecks a lot of the First, Sixth and Seventh Fleets... as the Fourth and Fifth were mostly intact after the battle...? Meh. The map was awesome, I don’t care too much about the fleets bit; very pleased Eriadu joined the Confederation, I am. Mildly intrigued to see how worlds near Imperial Space seemed to gravitate away from the GA; curious!

Oh, and how the NGCW article managed not to mention Lumiya once mildly amused me, as well. But I may be misremembering; the Atlas isn’t in front of me currently, dangnabbit.

But, kudos for naming that the Third harassed Bothan Space; I only just recently managed to work out the Bounty was an element from the Third. laugh

Overall; love it, but everyone has interpretations of particular era’s; Jello of the Empire, myself of the NGCW, etc – I do feel like we’re being incredibly critical of the Atlas; when we all universally love the thing!

Benson800 a écrit:Je pense que des fiches ne tarderont pas à pleuvoir

Evan Lupin a écrit:Au vue des quelques erreurs vous pensez qu'il va y avoir une réédition?